Justitia Themis

Joined

• started 161 topics
• posted 2,529 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Justitia Themis

• 
  28

  Greg Stafford says racial unity among JW's makes them God's people

  by truthseeker in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  check this out.... http://www.elihubooks.com/greg-stafford/jwd3.htm.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Justitia Themis

  In Sacramento, California, during the 1970s, my sister-in-law's brother (who is white) proposed to a black sister in his congregation. They had been dating for about a year. She accepted. Her father, an elder in the congregation, refused to allow the marriage. He did not want his daughter to marry a "white boy."
• 
  28

  Greg Stafford says racial unity among JW's makes them God's people

  by truthseeker in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  check this out.... http://www.elihubooks.com/greg-stafford/jwd3.htm.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Justitia Themis

  Interesting post from Channel C...much less emotional that those posted here.

  Posted by AliveinChrist on Sun - Oct 1 - 4:14pm:
  
  
  Greetings group

  I haven’t been able to post for some time now, do to life and work. However recently I have been troubled with the misrepresentation of Stafford and what it is that he has been saying, and what others including many of my ex-JW friends have also said about him.

  For example, one person last week stated:

  “I read here on the forum that Greg Stafford is taking a stand in favor of the Watchtower organization.”

  I really wish that very intelligent and able persons like that would at least take the time out to listen to what Stafford has been saying, as apposed to what others have been saying that Stafford is saying. Stafford began his apologist career online defending mostly the JW stand on the nature of Christ, against the Trinity, and in favor of the usage of the Divine name. He did have some debates online about whether or not the Watchtower deserves the title of a ‘false prophet’ often defending them. He mostly defended the WT against misrepresentation about what they believe and teach, since there has been much written against the JW’s in the apologetic world, and there seems to be no one in the Christian apologetic world that corrects the errors made by many main stream Christians who have written about them and often mischaracterized the JW positions on theological matters. Therefore, Stafford did write a book criticizing the critics of the JW’s and pointing out what he believes to be the logical and scriptural errors of the many WT critics.

  However, Stafford went on to find many of the critical works about the WT organization well founded, and wrote a second book where he critically examined the authority structure, the chronology, as well as doctrines such as the blood policy of the organization. In doing so, he was seen by JW’s as having abandoned the WT and condemned by many of the popular JW apologist letting the secrets out, publicly displaying the dirty laundry, and giving the critics even more substance to write about.

  He has had two public and recorded debates on the Trinity and Deity of Christ, against JW critics Rob Bowman, and James White, where he defended not the WT, but the unique position of Christ Jesus.

  On his web site a few months ago he announced that he would be finishing the 3rd addition of his JWD publication, and that while he worked on it, he would on a limited basis return to the meetings for ‘another look.”

  Stafford stated on his web at http://www.elihubooks.com/greg-stafford/another.htm :

  “It is time for another look at the organization that has fallen into the same injurious path that one travels when ‘man dominates man to his injury.”
  End quote

  In saying such a thing about the WT, it doesn’t seem to me that Stafford has “returned to the organization” or that he is “defending the WT organization.”
  It seems more of a criticism of the WT that a returning to blind obedience to them. In the same article mentioned above, Stafford goes on to illustrate Jeremiah 24:1-10, stating that the WT is no more safe that what happened to Jerusalem before it was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar in 587 bce, and that Jesus illustration of the wheat and the weeds will also be fulfilled upon them. I don’t know of anyone loyal to the WT who would use such illustrations of the WT! In returning to the WT organization, it clearly is not a returning to loyalty to the WT, and Stafford seems to have gone out of his way to make that point clear.

  And last week, on an online interview of Stafford, on the ‘Narrow mind broadcast” at http://www.unchainedradio.com/nuke/ Pasture Gene Cook and Dr. Robert Morey set up what was clearly a staged attempt to discredit Stafford, by announcing to him the subject to be about the Trinity and Christ, and then coming out and asking Stafford questions about the future knowledge of God and predestination, subject about which Stafford has never written about or defended the WT position on. Clearly the attempt was to show that Stafford didn’t understand Gods nature or knowledge, and therefore couldn’t be trusted on matters of the Trinity. Since neither Cook nor Morey are on Stafford’s level in discussion about the Trinity, this trick was what they had designed. I believe that it was Stafford’s best interview yet. In that Stafford gave a brief overview of his life, he publications, and his position with the organization. Cook and Morey came off and arrogant and condescending, saying Stafford is not a ‘brother nor a Christian’ while Stafford had only nice and uplifting things to say about the very people who tried to trick him. I was impressed with Stafford’s answers as well as his comfort in talking to two apologists who were both insulting and dishonest. Morey is perhaps the worst and most insulting of the many Christian apologist that I have heard talk, in the over and over he spoke about his academic credentials, and that he is not just a student of logic, but a teacher of logic, and on and on. Stafford spoke only once of his education, and even downplayed it, saying that the importance should be on the ideas and logic. The result of the interview will be a public debate with Stafford and Morey about the Knowledge of God, followed by a second debate on the Trinity.

  Stafford clearly defended his position with respect to defending the WT by stating that he will defend the WT when he agrees with them, but he would not support them where he disagrees with them.

  I think that position is the only rational and logical position to have, since no one should defend any human or human organization entirely, only where that person or that group agrees and teaches what is Truth should we support not just them, but the idea or teaching that they support.

  In that some here among my ex-JW brothers and sisters have stated that Stafford’s positions is “incomprehensible,” it needs to be shown by such ones based upon the facts of what Stafford has stated and not upon heresy that such a position is incomprehensible. In fact, I am willing to bet that the very ones making such a claim are in fact ideological and theological close to what Stafford has been saying, namely, that what the WT has said about God and Christ and the usage of the Divine Name are important, yet that the WT position concerning its claimed authority and chronology as well as its blood doctrine are outright false. When Stafford returned to the WT, it clearly was not a return to being a full functioning member of the WT with full loyalty to the origination, rather, he obviously returned on the limited basis for a specific purpose, and even did that critiquing the organization. He wrote a book defending the teachings of the importance of the Divine Name, Jehovah, as well as the unique position of Jesus Christ, and he wrote a second book critically and publicly assessing the claims of the organization.

  I believe that Stafford’s position is perhaps the only one that is nonsensical and has no loyalty to any person or group of people, but to the ideas, teachings, and interpretation of the bible that he believes in. Where he agrees with the Witnesses, he will defend them, where he disagrees with them, he has more than proven that he is willing to depart from them and say otherwise.

  Can someone tell me what is ‘incomprehensible” about that?

  In the end of the Morey and Cook interview, Morey stated to Greg:

  “You are not a brother, you are not a Christian.” Greg simply replied that any judgment that Morey made could come back upon him.

  I sincerely hope that among those of us who are ex-Jw’s that was look carefully at what we say about each other, and that if we are going to wrote about each other, at least take the time to find out exactly what it is that we believe before we write it. Greg seems to me to be saying about the exact same thing that most of all those here believe, however it seems that like Morey, we are quick to make judgment about Stafford before we really know much of anything about what it is exactly he has said or is saying. In my opinion, Stafford has done about as good a job as any in getting the conversation opened up about the Trinity, God’s unique Name, as well as the secret and dirty laundry of the WT that the JW’s don’t want aired publicly.

  When the JW’s were being criticized for not debating or defending their teachings in public debate format, Greg rose up and took on the best of the Trinitarian apologist. When many criticized those to defended the organization for not having candor about the many errors in the organization, Greg wrote a second publication discussing those errors. On his web site, he states that there is both “Good and Bad’ in the organization, and I agree with him. I think the group of Ex-JW’s who only criticize the Watchtower and can only see the ‘Bad’ are just as ignorant and emotionally blind as the Watchtower loyalist who can only see the “Good” in the organization, both are extreme positions that are founded on emotion, not logic. When Greg states that there is “Bad” in the Watchtower, he is called an ‘apostate’ among many names and abandoned by his JW acquaintances. When he says that there is “Good” in the organization, I was disgusted and appalled by how many ex-JW’s especially those on jehovahs-witness.com were so quick to throw him to the lions for daring to say that there are some positive teachings in the WT. To me the extremist on both sides were simply a reflection of each other, one not being able to admit that anything good and beneficial exist there, and the other not being able to admit that there is anything that is wrong or bad with it.

  I can only say that even after I left states to get out of the WT, when I had seen abuse after abuse and began to learn about the many errors in teachings and interpretations that the WT had made, I would never dare to say that no ‘good’ exist in the origination. Ironically, most JW’s who leave were very happy to have been a part of the WT for many decades, and many ex-JW apologist such as Jonnson, Franz, and Penton, have written books where they also say that same as Stafford has stated, that there are many positive things in the WT, along with the ‘bad’ things. In fact, that is the over all theme of Franz book, and perhaps why his book is so powerful in making its points.

  In conclusion, I can only say that Channel C has by far the most intelligent and thoughtful ideas and philosophies being posted among the many ex-Jw web sites, and I hope that it continues on and avoids the degradation of conversation that is prevalent among the many other Ex-JW sites. I believe that if you want to know what a person says or thinks, the best way is to go to the source, and this is true about what Greg Stafford’s position is. He has written much and has had many debates and radio interviews, therefore there is no reason for ignorance of what he believes or has stated, for I personally think it to be the only one that is in fact rational and comprehensible.

  Thank you,

  In Christ

  AliveinChrist
• 
  48

  IT'S OFFICIAL! MEETINGS WILL LAST FOREVER!! Shoot me now!

  by Gill in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  yes, it's official!

  in the new system jehovah's witnesses will still have to attend the terrible meetings for all eternity!!!!!!.

  the watchtower, november 1st, page 31, para 16:.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Justitia Themis

  Yet another scripture pulled out of context. IF we are going to attend meeting forever, what are we going to do there? Verse 24 continues, "And they will actually go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that were transgressing against me; for the very worms upon them will not die and their fire itself will not be extinguished, and they must become something repulsive to all flesh."

  So, if we are going to take these scriptures literally, it appears Jehovah will perserve some of the bodies of those killed at Armageddon. And those bodies will continue to smoke and be eaten by live-forever worms. We get to go view the disgusting sight at every meeting. Yeah!!!

  This will be my response to any of my brothers and sisters who choose to emphasize these sentences.
• 
  44

  The Uniting of Races ... Credit the Watchtower

  by The wanderer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  untitled document <!-- .style1 { font-family: arial, sans-serif; color: #009900; } body { background-color: #f3f2d6; } .style2 {font-family: arial, sans-serif} --> the uniting of the races, giving credit where credit is due although this discussion is going to raise the eyebrows of controversy, it is.

  having been one of jehovah's witnesses for a .

  number of years i could not help but notice that there was harmony between.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Justitia Themis

  Some people are just nasty, and cults can't erase such deep character flaws

  I have to disagree with that. My father is from the East Coast and White. Before study with JWs, he was agnostic, and a living, breathing Archie Bunker from All in the Family. During the 40s-50s he would walk into restaurants and Heil Hitler. He truly put all such nonsense behind him. So much so, that during the 70s, he was the only white elder with whom the blacks in our congregation would deal.

  The rest of my East Coast family retain such prejudices to this day.

  Justitia
• 
  44

  The Uniting of Races ... Credit the Watchtower

  by The wanderer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  untitled document <!-- .style1 { font-family: arial, sans-serif; color: #009900; } body { background-color: #f3f2d6; } .style2 {font-family: arial, sans-serif} --> the uniting of the races, giving credit where credit is due although this discussion is going to raise the eyebrows of controversy, it is.

  having been one of jehovah's witnesses for a .

  number of years i could not help but notice that there was harmony between.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Justitia Themis

  Your a white boy ain't ya?

  Dear A Sphere is not a Circle:

  I can't speak for Stillajwexelder, but I happen to be white girl, and I DO notice racism in the congregations; however, most of it is from black brothers and sisters who assume everyone is "against" them. Or, brothers and sisters from the Spanish congregation who make fun of "gringos." Despite my whiteness, I am not totally unaware of the challenges faced by persons of color. My daughter is Latina, and I have nieces and nephews who are Portugese, Spanish and Cambodian.

  While there is undeniably racial tension in the congregation's between ALL races and cultures, the fact remains that the congregations are more integrated than any other religious organziation of which I am aware. We can discuss the WTBTS's failings ad naseum, but this is one area in which they excel.

  Justicia
• 
  33

  Elderly JW refused to open her Bible...

  by AuldSoul in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  okay, some of you might have read about my conversation with the elderly lady that was doing street witnessing in conyers, ga. this experience happened this morning ... just looked at the clock, yesterday morning .

  i walked out of the local tag office (where we register our vehicles and acquire license plates for the cars) and there sat an elderly lady with current magazines.

  being in somewhat of a hurry, i tried to walk a more direct path to my vehicle ... but she thought i was avioding her.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Justitia Themis

  AudlSoul:

  Are you SURE she was a JW? Asking for money for coffee is unheard of. And, I am suspicious about her NOT wanting to open the Bible. For the last year or so, that has been the big "push"...get the Bible open...even if it is just one scripture...yada yada yada.

  I think you might have been "had." Perhaps it is a new form of begging.

  Justitia
• 
  15

  Was anyone at Bethel on 9-11-01?

  by snarf in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  was anyone at bethel on 9-11 or know of anyone who was?

  i was just wondering the reactions to the bethelites there on that day.

  also, was bethel close enough to ground zero to have any effect on the publishing that day?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Justitia Themis

  What-a-Coincidence:

  Is what RR said about locking the doors true?

  Justitia
• 
  65

  Society goes nuts--yet another "special" campaign for September!

  by sir82 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in an earlier post here http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/114651/1.ashx i noted the society's "special campaign" for september, an "awake" magazine dedicated to the topic of evolution vs. creation.

  there is a "special campaign" to highlight that magazine all month.. got a call from our po last night.

  there is going to be yet another "special campaign" in september -- a new "kingdom news" tract.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Justitia Themis

  Dear Inthetruth:

  As an active publisher, who experienced the '75 debacle as a teenager, I would like to say that you are grossly ignorant of your own religion's history. Not only was 1975 "preached," people were encouraged to sell their home and cash out businesses and retirements. You might want to spend some time reviewing the CD-Rom before you post here.

  ***

  km5/74p.3HowAreYouUsingYourLife?***

  Yes, since the summer of 1973 there have been new peaks in pioneers every month. Now there are 20,394 regular and special pioneers in the United States, an all-time peak. That is 5,190 more than there were in February 1973! A 34-percent increase! Does that not warm our hearts? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world?s end.?1 John 2:17.

  Justitia
• 
  18

  HOW MANY ELDERS IN YOUR CONGREGATION?

  by badboy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  any takers?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Justitia Themis

  109 publishers, 20 elders, 18 ministerial servants...no shepherding calls, magazine counter not manned before meetings, magazines consistently late, have to track down KMs...but every CO visit we get commended for our "fine spirit as shown by our large group of appointed men."
• 
  33

  May a JW mail carrier deliver mail to a church?

  by Bonnie_Clyde in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  we've already discussed the 3-15-06 wt about a self-employed contractor not being able to paint one of the churches of christendom.

  well read on.

  paragraph 13 asks, "what about performing a legitimate service, such as delivering mail everywhere in a community, including places that promote wrong practices?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Justitia Themis

  The Watchtower under discussion did mention delivering mail to a church. Additionally, it referenced, but did not quote, Matt. 5: 45, which says that God makes it rain upon the good and the bad. So, there is no proscription against delivering mail to a church

  The following address the clerk selling tobacco issue.

  ***

  km 2/74 p. 4 Harmonizing Our Employment with ‘Love of Neighbor’ ***

  By comparison there may be a Christian who is simply an employee in an establishment that sells tobacco incidentally and who has no voice or control in what is sold. For example, an employee in a restaurant may be called upon by a customer to sell him a cigar which the management stocks. Or, one may be working in a food market; groceries and meat are the principal products sold, but the owners stock tobacco as an incidental item. The Christian employee may be expected to collect money for items that are sold, including the tobacco. Personal conscience would have to dictate what he or she in this situation could and should do as to handling tobacco products to this extent. He may prefer to ask the employer to relieve him of any handling of these objectionable materials. Unless a serious issue would arise, such employee would not be restricted from serving as a pioneer, an elder or a ministerial servant in the congregation